[Editor's note: this discussion was recorded at the end of 2003. Some references to now-changed circumstances, such as Marvel's Epic line still being active, have been preserved intact so as not to alter the flow of the conversation.]

NEIL KLEID: I'm Neil Kleid, one of the contributors to HOUSE OF TWELVE. I do some mini comics, I'm working on some mainstream stuff, and I'm a good dancer.

MIKE DAWSON: I'm Mike Dawson and I do a book called GABAGOOL!

CHRIS RADTKE: I'm Chris Radtke and I do GABAGOOL with Mike.

BRIAN MUSIKOFF: I'm also Chris Radtke... Ha-Ha! I tricked you! I'm really Brian Musikoff, I publish under the name Manual Comics and I love to draw.

JENNY GONZALEZ: I'm Jenny Gonzalez. I contribute to a lot of anthologies and I do my own book, TOO NEGATIVE, a mini.

CHEESE HASSELBERGER: I be Cheese Hasselberger, and I publish HOUSE OF TWELVE comics. I founded the Bowery Bowel Movement comic jams, New York's largest and longest running comic jams. I like candle lit dinners, long walks on the beach and ritual homicide.

So we're here to talk about what seems to be a growing community in the underground comics sorta vein, and how comics are going away from the autobio, precious books stuff. We all went to SPX; did you guys see that there? More humour based stuff and less, "this is my broken heart" type stuff?

MUSIKOFF: I don't understand what you mean by precious? Do you mean tame? Don't you think that'd be considered an underground comic? I mean, if sales are any meter...

KLEID: I think that everybody doing indie/alternative comics has that idea that, "Yeah, we're doing underground comics" just because it's not a mainstream comic. And I think there needs to be a clear division between what's indie, what's alternative and what's underground. I think the problem is these days when you say indie/alternative comics it's a lot of what we call precious little books, autobio, stories about relationships, happy feel good stories...

GONZALEZ: How cute your kitty is.

KLEID: ... A book you dust on your mantle and take down and read every week. Compared to the stuff we do which is a admittedly more offensive, more humorous, because you're trying to make people think.

DAWSON: I don't think I get what you're saying. The precious "sad boy" comics and stuff like that are around, I mean that's all they had at SPX and they seemed to be doing really well. But take Jeffery Brown, I mean there's an example of someone who's doing really well and his comics are good, but they're definitely autobiographical.

KLEID: But would you call that an underground comic?

DAWSON: Yeah, totally.

RADTKE: He printed the last one up himself and they're very much precious art objects, and they sell for like thirty bucks. They all had drawn covers and stuff. I didn't buy one because I can't spend thirty dollars.

KLEID: It's just when you throw around the word "underground", you kinda have to define what you're talking about.

RADTKE: I think anything that doesn't pay the rent is pretty much underground.

GONZALEZ: But then we're talking about all comics.

KLEID: The problem is there are too many damned labels. That's not underground, that's more DIY, Which anybody with the money and a photocopier can do.

RADTKE: Back to the precious books, art objects... I don't make those type of comics, but as long as there is some sort of entertainment element to them, I don't see much of a problem with it. Do you guys feel that these are taking over the industry?

GONZALEZ: I think they're a fad right now. I mean, there's a place for everything. There's a place for, y'know, more crass, crude humour comics, and there's a place for my cute sad bunny comics or whatever. It's just that, I think right now it's popular and it's sorta the thing to do and you're gonna get more favourable attention doing that. Everyone will say, "Oh, you're so sensitive!"

HASSELBERGER: That says, "Comics will get you laid".

KLEID: I do some of that sort of stuff. My own RANT COMICS is that sensitive, precious comics approach, but I also have stuff like HOUSE OF TWELVE.

RADTKE: Your stuff makes me cry... but for all the wrong reasons.

KLEID: Many people cry, including my landlord. There definitely seems to be a lack of stuff like GABAGOOL, HO12, JOHNNY RYAN, LEGAL ACTION COMICS... I mean, at SPX we were commenting on how our table got put in the funny ghetto section. Next to Hellman, Troutman and Steckler, sorta like, "Oh, they don't count, they don't have the sweet comics".

HASSELBERGER: Yeah, "They don't have a soul".

RADTKE: Ben T Steckler has the biggest soul out of anybody in comics.

HASSELBERGER: You mean the biggest collection of fart jokes. I mean c'mon, he does a fart joke a day. He's my hero.

Hey, Kevin Colden has arrived. Let's pause for one minute to set him up...

'Cartoonists don't live the most exciting lives.' (At this point Colden, a contributor to HOUSE OF TWELVE, Manual Comics and WEIRD NJ, walks in the door. He gets himself a beer and the discussion continues.)

HASSELBERGER: So the question was asked, what did I think of the sadboy comics? And my belief is that it started five to ten years ago, and I really think it's run its course. Look, cartoonists don't live the most exciting lives...

RADTKE: You say it's run it's course, but on Newsarama the other day, I saw Craig Thompson holding up a check for twenty thousand dollars for the royalties of BLANKETS. So it's not dying yet.

GONZALEZ: And I think you're gonna see a rash of bad Craig Thompson imitators in the future, because they all looked at that picture.

HASSELBERGER: Okay, look. He sold ten thousand copies of BLANKETS, congratulations... X-MEN sells, what, a hundred thousand copies a month?

KLEID: Now that's sad boy comics!

HASSELBERGER: ... At it's height ZAP was selling a million copies per issue...

GONZALEZ: I tellya, I think it's become such a fad. It's like anything that's not that just doesn't get a fair shake. Look at LEGAL ACTION COMICS. Everyone complains that it was all dick jokes, but I mean, it's about Dirty Danny! What did you expect? "My Puppy Died Today"? I mean, come on.

KLEID: I think what it boils down to is, if you want to win an Eisner, do sad boy comics. That's why everyone wants to come up with "I was sexually molested by Craig Thompson" stuff.

HASSELBERGER: I'm buyin' that!

GONZALEZ: That leads me back to another thing that totally pisses me off. Okay, if that's a sad boy comic, it's so deep and profound. But I was sexually molested, and if I do a comic about it everyone would be like, "Oh look, here's another female comic with a story about rape in it". There was a whole discussion about this on one of the message boards. People were saying, "Man, all these female cartoonists, all they ever talk about is being sexually molested and getting beaten by their husbands".

Why is it that these sad boy comics are sensitive, artistic and profound, but when women do it it's trashed as if it were all feminist, victim bullshit?

HASSELBERGER: Maybe because the majority of comic readers are men and the idea of men molesting little girls makes them uncomfortable and they don't want to deal with it.

DAWSON: Do you think it's not taken seriously? Because Julie Doucet gets....

GONZALEZ: Yeah, and Debbie Dreschler...

HASSELBERGER: And Phoebe Glockner.

DAWSON: I dunno, I mean Doucet's pretty well respected. When people ask who the great canon of cartoonists are, people will begrudgingly admit that some women are included in that, and Julie Doucet's always one of them.

GONZALEZ: Has she ever done a story about abuse? I mean her stuff tends to be more funny surrealism, I mean she does talk about sex stuff, but I mean there's a world of difference between 'sex' and 'abused'.

RADTKE: I don't think it's a problem of there being an overabundance of these stories. Look, if I was molested by grandpa or whatever... As long as it's got a good story, the art's nice and it's presented in an compelling way, then I don't give a shit. It doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl.

Sure there are a lot of stories out there that are crap, just because the person can't tell a story too well. But if the person is a good storyteller, then I'm open to it. There was a story in the latest SPX anthology... I can't remember the artist, but it was about this girl whose father kidnapped her and took her on this sort of grand tour of shitty life. But I thought it was one of the better stories in there.

KLEID: To bring us a little back on topic here, why is it that the humour stuff seems to be less accepted?

GONZALEZ: I dunno, I mean you have a Sam Henderson or a Peter Bagge...

KLEID: What was it you were saying about ZAP comic sales?

HASSELBERGER: I was saying, so BLANKETS sells 10,000 copies, great. But I had read that at it's height ZAP was selling a million copies an issue. Granted, they had a distribution network through head shops, but still... a million issues. That's staggering.

DAWSON: I think the guy's making more money selling BLANKETS though, it's a lot more expensive than ZAP...

HASSELBERGER: Yeah, but he's outselling him ten thousand to one!

'As long as it's got a good story, then I don't give a shit.' RADTKE: Humour in general has always taken a backseat to drama. Look at the movies, the Academy Awards. Best dramatic actor? Drama always wins. There's not even a comedy category. It's the same in comics. Humour comics never get the same attention as dramatic stuff, be it superhero comics, rape victim comics or what have you. That's always going to be an uphill battle, not only in comics but in the media in general.

KLEID: That makes sense with Marvel's EPIC mandate, no comedies.

HASSELBERGER: No comedies?

KLEID: No comedies.

KEVIN COLDEN: Apparently that's kind of dead at the moment anyway.

HASSELBERGER: Good thing everyone hates to laugh.

GONZALEZ: That's so sad, y'know? Because when you watch good comedy it's like watching dance. When I'm watching THE HONEYMOONERS I feel like I'm watching ballet. I think that some cartoonists like, say, Peter Bagge, who do comedy but also take a hard look at human nature... I think you can say a lot through humour and satire. It seems easier to feel profound if you say it straightforward. I hate to say it but I also think it's very trendy to be doing all hyper-sensitive comics now.

COLDEN: It's easier to wring your hands and say, "Oh, look at my sad life", than it is to take a step outside to take a look at yourself objectively, and see the humour in whatever your situation may be. I think that in the indie/alternative comics scene there's just a complete lack of talent on the storyteller's part.

MUSIKOFF: Along those lines, I think people make those types of comics because they have something to say, they are driven to it. But then you get a glut of stuff in the same vein from people who don't. The point being, if you don't have anything to say, don't do it!

RADTKE: But that sorta goes against the grain of the whole Team Comics thing, which is like, "We'll all make comics and good or bad at least we're all in this together".

HASSELBERGER: I don't think I buy that. Crap is crap!

KLEID: I have no problem encouraging someone to make a comic, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy that comic.

HASSELBERGER: I have no problem encouraging someone to make a comic either, but if it completely blows, I'm not going to encourage them to make another one.

COLDEN: I have problems telling them it's crap.

HASSELBERGER: I get emails all the time, and a lot recently since the release of HOUSE OF TWELVE VER 2.0. People are hearing about it and want to get into the third one, they hear the third one's going to be bigger, more open to ideas, et cetera. So I've gotten a bunch of submissions from kids, one of which is amazing - this guy from South America, David Paleo... I think his first American work might be the new LEGAL ACTION. The sample I got was something like giant babies beating their mothers! Really twisted, great. Then I got another one from this kid who was like, "I LOVE TO SMOKE POT AND DRAW COMICS, AND THAT MAKES ME AN ARTIST". No, sorry, that makes you a fucking pothead.

DAWSON: Was that the 4:20 kid?

HASSELBERGER: No, another one, I do have that one too though.

KLEID: There are so many so-called sad boy books because people see things like BLANKETS selling ten thousand copies, and that's what Top Shelf is publishing. And they think, "So if I want to get published, I have to do something like that". Meanwhile, you have guys like Victor Cayro just doing whatever they want. I find him fascinating.

DAWSON: You guys think the major small press publishers are favouring this sorta sad boy stuff?

KLEID: Look at Josh Simmons, he puts out the ALL ABOUT FUCKING mini comic. And then look at the stuff he gets put out by Top Shelf...

GONZALEZ: Have you seen HAPPY? It's similar to what I do in TOO NEGATIVE, it's attacking what society thinks happy should be or how you should behave, but it's actually very gory. It's like a nightmare.

''Underground' is like porn. You can't define it, but you know it when you see it.' RADTKE: I look at it like this. Top Shelf has its sad boy comics, sure. But look at Slave Labor, they're making bank on all the goth stuff. And I don't think Alternative puts out sad boy comics. They seem to take more care about their comics, and I like the way they actually put out comic books as opposed to graphic novels. Both Alternative and Slave Labor, for that matter.

GONZALEZ: They definitely have more of a variety of humour oriented books, or stuff that's lighter than a lot of other publishers.

RADTKE: Well, [Alternative Comics publisher] Jeff Mason likes to try a lot of different subject matters. He likes to throw things up against the wall and see what sticks. And I think that's good, I mean I got a lot of stuff at SPX that I thought was really good.

KLEID: So you think that we're saying that there is a form of 'underground comics' out there. Maybe not to rival what there was back in the day, but do you still think it's there and viable?

GONZALEZ: I think it's there, it's just not the in thing at the moment.

RADTKE: I think we're kind of a testament to it. It's bigger than the people in this room. I think New York City specifically has a large underground following that's going on. Like, there's everyone here, plus the Meathaüs guys, the old school guys, Dorkin, Alex Robinson, and guys who've been floating around for a long time... There's a lot of energy floating around these days.

HASSELBERGER: There's also a lot of people coming into the city now. I've seen a lot of people from outside New York all of a sudden moving to New York. "I've heard tale of this magical place called Williamsburg! I must journey to a land called Brooklyn."

MUSIKOFF: So have we decided yet, "How do you define what's 'Underground'?"

GONZALEZ: I think it's like porn. You can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

RADTKE: The mainstream is certainly aware of smaller comics now. You have properties getting snatched up left and right.

DAWSON: My question is this. Do you guys feel unhappy about the place the work you do has in what you perceive to be the comics industry?

COLDEN: Abso-frickin-lutely.

DAWSON: Because I have a problem with the way comics are seen by the mainstream world, but I feel all right. I mean, I could do better, but we could all do better. I don't feel ghettoized, but is that how you guys feel?

HASSELBERGER: Sometimes, yeah. I mean humour books are ghettoized more than the goth kiddie porn books.

DAWSON: Is it a sales thing, or more of an attention thing?

COLDEN: It's easier to take a serious comic seriously then to take a funny comic seriously.

DAWSON: Do you think the sadboy stuff is taken more seriously from a critical or a sales standpoint? Because I think critically, they seem to get harsh treatment.

KLEID: I think what he's trying to say is that you're more likely to see BLANKETS in TIME MAGAZINE than GABAGOOL!

COLDEN: In that case I actually mean it in both ways. BLANKETS is getting a ton of press and a ton of sales and praise from everywhere, but I think it's a very flawed book.

RADTKE: With BLANKETS - I'm thinking of the thick books, BOX OFFICE POISON'S another one - it's part of a thing that, regardless of how good they are, I've noticed at the conventions that these books are magnets for female comic readers. I've been going to comic conventions since I was a kid, and at SPX this year I was seated next to Alex Robinson and across the street from Craig Thompson. And the amount of women who weren't comic readers who were saying, "My boyfriend (or husband) got it and I love it!" was amazing. I think that's great.

KLEID: That's not fair though... I think that there's quite a female 'pull' for some stuff... Maybe not LEGAL ACTION COMICS, but you see women coming up for a book like...

COLDEN: STRANGERS IN PARADISE?

KLEID: TRUE PORN, that was mostly women. We had the TRUE PORN signing the other night and it was all women!

MUSIKOFF: Yeah, but it was at a dildo shop.

COLDEN: Why is it women don't like dick and fart jokes like men do?

KLEID: I think you'd be surprised.

MUSIKOFF: I said the same thing about Tom Beland's TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD. It's a true story about how he met his wife. I told Cheese, "This is gonna turn my lady friends on to comics". Because it had a more mature approach to romance.

RADTKE: I've never read it, but I know he's very popular among the female fans, like the Sequential Tart crowd.

GONZALEZ: I haven't read that one either, and I'm not much of a fan of romance comics, but from what I've seen of it it looked like a more realistic, based in reality sorta thing. Unlike STRANGERS IN PARADISE... Okay, I know the purpose of this discussion isn't for me to dissect what I hate about STRANGERS IN PARADISE. But I've known soooooo many girls who have been fans of Evan Dorkin, Peter Bagge, MAGIC WHISTLE, and so on...

DAWSON: Well, I don't think Chris is saying that all women like one thing...

RADTKE: I mean more that it's bringing in a new audience.

GONZALEZ: I think women like myself and Lauren Weinstein aren't your typical woman.

RADTKE: Yeah, but you're punk rock...

GONZALEZ: There's a lot of humour stuff out there, and a lot of it is really funny. I think we all just have to make more of an effort to talk about it.

RADTKE: I think as far as the humour stuff goes, Bagge and even Dorkin influenced me the most. And no matter what you think, that's funny shit.

DAWSON: I might be the only person in the room that doesn't like HATE...

RADTKE: Before you kill him, he does like the art.

MUSIKOFF: That's funny, because I can see a direct relationship between GABAGOOL and HATE.

RADTKE: Oh, I make no bones about that. I'm very influenced by it.

(At this point Jenny Gonzalez has to leave for band practice. Join us next week for Part Two, where the remaining cartoonists take advantage of Jenny's departure to talk about porn, and implore cartoonists everywhere not to be boring.)

Cheese Hasselberger is the publisher and mastermind of HOUSE OF TWELVE comics.

This article is Ideological Freeware. The author grants permission for its reproduction and redistribution by private individuals on condition that the author and source of the article are clearly shown, no charge is made, and the whole article is reproduced intact, including this notice.